Conversation #6
Conversation #6
Throughout the semester we have looked at three distinct kinds of stories: Traditional, Fabulist and Formalist. For this conversation we are going to focus on what we know of these different story movements and how they apply to our author.
If you need to, review the Author Role-Play assignment.
Please read the guidelines for this conversation carefully.
For this conversation, do the following:
1.) Review the information about Traditional stories, Fabulism, and Formalism for the modules in the class. Have your author talk about which style of story his/her would fall under and why. Some thoughts for development:
- Perhaps the author's body of work shifted / is shifting during their career, so explore this shift and the differing ideas of the story that the author might have had.
- Perhaps the style the author favors isn't what readers identify the author with?
- Perhaps the style the writer wrote/writes in is a product of the times the author lives in?
- Perhaps the style of story the writer wrote/writes in is a product of the author's personal experiences / family / relationships / childhood?
In this discussion the author might want to give examples from his/her work as examples of the author's perspective and beliefs about writing
2.) Make sure you are speaking in first person in your author's point of view
3.) Please respond to at least 3 other authors in this conversation.
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ReplyDeleteOh, I think fiction is fiction and there’s no wrong way to do it. I don’t like to say what my work or myself is a certain term unless I know how the other person defines it. Formalism is fun and smart, I can say that much. Rules that don’t allow for creativity but for constraint aren’t very good rules at all, if you ask me. So Formalism that's done right is thrilling, as it opens doors to tell stories inside and outside the stories themselves. I don’t think I write for a certain style. I do all sorts. I write new things all the time and they may be very different from the others I have come up with. So, well, I think if I had to put myself somewhere, I would live someplace in between Traditional and Fabulism. I think that gives me enough room to write in one world but still have fun in another. A great example is the MaddAddam Trilogy. It’s fictional, and a little bit fantastic, but it’s neither one nor the other, strictly.
DeleteYour viewpoint is fantastic on this idea. The middle of the road concept is important. The use of multiple writing styles and the middle ground between them is very beneficial especially as advice to the younger authors that may not have accomplished as much as either of us. I never read the MaddAddam trilogy myself, as I will have found myself long gone far before that finds its way to paper.
DeleteI agree that there is no wrong way to write fiction. I think everyone's writing style might fall into different categories. I like your comment about rules restraining the artistic process. I agree with this, because I think when you worry about rules you are less focused on crafting good characters and plot.
DeleteRoald Dahl
Writing with no style is perhaps its own style. New ways of writing are always being developed, and perhaps not having a style will create something new, down the line. As long as it is a story that can be told and understood, I don't think the form particularly matters. Write what needs to be written. -R. Dahl
DeleteI find myself in a similar situation. I've certainly had my successes with Formalist stories, but the insertion of fabulist elements really makes the stories interesting as well. I like to describe my stories as the construction of a flying machine. The shape may not make sense when it's being built, but as long as it flies when it's done, it doesn't matter the form it takes. In that respect, I have dabbled a bit in the styles as you have.
DeleteHello, everyone.
ReplyDeleteI happen to be a fan of fabulist stories, as you can see from my multitude of children’s books. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Matilda are among the few from the top of my head—James and the Giant Peach, et cetera. My work hasn’t shifted much from what it originally started as. My first published work was A Piece of Cake, which detailed my own experiences. I am a proponent for writing about what you know and your experiences. That’s very important as a writer, and within Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Matilda, there’s lots of tidbits of my childhood and experiences sprinkled into the pages. I would definitely say that I identify as a fabulist. There’s an art to incorporating fantasy into literary works—to make an unbelievable world believable.
Sincerely,
Roald Dahl
I've always quite enjoyed your Matilda story. She reminds me of one of my own characters, except without a tragic and upsetting ending to her journey. But then again as you say, it's better to write what you know....
DeleteHello Roald,
DeleteI find your work strong and I would have to give credit to your fabulist style which I don"t do lightly. I respect your work and encourage you to look at nature for the true fabulism.
I couldn't agree more, Roald. There is an art behind the fabulist story, and you have perfected it! Though I often lean towards realism, I find your works delightful--they all have at least an inkling of reality to ground the story before introducing something extraordinary.
DeleteI agree that writing what you know is a good idea. My first stories came from my memories of my time in Japan when I was younger. Although I hadn't been there in a long time, the memories I had were enough to create a novel out of.
DeleteAh yes, Roald! I too find much enjoyment in creating these wondrous stories of children, and gifts. It much reminds me of my writing in "The Particular Sadness of Lemon Cake". While I enjoy writing on experiences as well, I like questioning the "whats". It explores more of the unknown which can be more emotional and impactful.
DeleteIt's clear I have a fancy for Fabulism! No disrespect for writers in the other two categories, but they feel quite limited from my perspective. A goal of my writing I established after my somewhat cluttered attempts at full-length novels was to allow my spiritual inclinations to bleed through. Although I usually save them for moralistic endings, it would be difficult for them to blend into my writings if they were Traditional or Formalist. The cartoonish emotional pithy my stories revolve around work perfectly thanks to Fabulism, which gives me a perfect playing field to give my stories a spiritual conclusion.
ReplyDeleteLimited eh? Do you not think that the beauty of the traditional writing style is worth the respect it deserves? The cartoon-ish style is respectable of course. I simply believe that the world we live in has so much nature imagery that we can craft unbelievable and strong stories without that.
DeleteI think it is excellent that you know your style. I personally enjoy writing Traditional stories, because I like incorporating real life into my stories. I do not think that the other categories are limiting. This might just be your viewpoint, because of the fact that you like writing Fabulism. There is nothing wrong with that though.
DeleteRoald Dahl
I don't think there's any limitation in any other kind of style. I think it's important to feel connected to your style and to know what your style is, but branching out to different writing forms is not a bad thing. It's experimentation. Though, I do quite enjoy fabulism, as well. I find that it's a terrific way to tell a message without being overt. -R. Dahl
DeletePersonally, I find the intricate details of the real world exciting enough. Traditionalism helps focus on problems in our lives and connects us emotionally to our readers. But, whatever works for your art. as long as it is purposeful.
DeleteJames Joyce
Wow, neat comparison of limit. I feel as though a writer is only as limited as their mind allows, but I do agree that the writing style of fabulist allows for the unknown and further exploration of creativity.
DeleteIf you all want to find out how to write a real story, you need to stick to the traditional formal. My pieces address the real world and what goes on in it. The world around us is beautiful. I was alive in the late 1800's and early 1900's. Formalism was a bit after my time. The art of a short story should be focused on capturing the world as it is in it's wonderful glory. Part of me wants to admit that my childhood had a role in my writing style. The experiences with my life in the depression was very impactful in my writing style development. I can't imagine writing for the world of fabulism. I find myself a fan of naturism. Nature is the most beautiful thing and that is what we, as authors should strive to write.
ReplyDelete-Jack London
Hello Jack. I agree with your opinion of sticking to traditional stories. All of my children's stories talk about real world issues that children deal with. I do not like to sugar coat things. I think it is important to tell the truth in writing, and then your story will develop along with the truth. Good day.
DeleteRoald Dahl
Jack,
DeleteWhile I am a traditional author myself, I don't believe it is the only way to portray the world. I tend to stick with a straightforward approach to storytelling, but I respect those who write in other styles and can portray real-world issues using fantastical approaches.
Jack, I couldn't agree more! There is so much complexity and beauty and wonder in the world around us. My writings always draw from the grittiness of reality. Society is rife with untold stories waiting to be shared, and they're ours for the picking!
DeleteJack,
DeleteI quite agree. Traditional stories capture the real world and the real problems people face. This impacts the reader much more!
James Joyce
Traditional stories are all nice and good, but I don't think we should limit ourselves to a specific style. My stories have gone in different directions and have all done pretty well, I think. Although, that isn't to say that there is anything wrong with sticking to one style, but being able to pull from wherever it is you may find inspiration, real or not, is great.
DeleteI think I have always written Traditional stories. I always believe in writing what is true into my stories. I have written about many controversial topics such as orphans, poverty, and many other topics that people like to ignore. I have been criticized quite a few times for writing about orphaned children with mean aunts and uncles, or about children that live in poverty. People didn't like that I was shattering that little dome that protected people and children from seeing and acknowledging these topics. I do not think we should ignore these topics just because they are hard to discuss. That is why I write about such difficult subjects. I think children are smarter than we give them credit for, and are strong enough to handle the idea of children who have no family, or children that go hungry.
ReplyDeleteRoald Dahl
Roald,
DeleteShatter away. Write about things that are difficult to talk about. Hold your mirror to society and let them decide for themselves what they see. In France, I gained a bit of fame for my literature. Yet I would write about prostitutes and how hypocritical society can be, and people loved that controversy. People are hacks. Keep writing, friend.
Mr. Dahl,
DeleteIt seems that we have a few things in common. I too wrote about taboo subjects. These are topics that others would simply sweep under the rug. I went through a phase where those who read y work thought it was garbage because I shined a light on the rumors or reality they chose not to acknowledge. Now my name is often associated with realism. Maybe the same can be done for you when scholars look back on your work--for the traditional stories.
Mr. Dahl,
DeleteI respect you for writing about difficult subjects even when you're criticized for it. I can certainly relate. I get criticized from both the Indian standpoint and the American when it comes to my stories. Immigration and assimilation are subjects that many people like to ignore, but they're experiences I've had in my life that people should know about. It's our job as writers to make people more aware of these things, both the good and the bad.
Roald Dahl,
DeleteI admire you're interest in writing the things that make people uncomfortable. I think it is good to be uncomfortable because that is where progress can be made. I like to do the same in my writing, especially in my more recent writing. Shinning a light on injustices and the poor treatment of marginalized groups whether through traditional or fabulist style is important.
ReplyDeleteGrace Paley
I am very grateful that my life has exposed me to stories worth telling. I’m not talking about fiction, either. Real, honest to God people, going through life, messing up, and continuing anyway. People don’t need anything except raw, hard life to have the making of an interesting story and so those are the types of stories I tell. My work has always been far on the traditional side. It isn’t that I have anything against fantastical elements in fiction, used skillfully and they add to the truth of a piece, only that my own experiences have shown me the drama and compassion in everyday “normal” life. I am more captivated by the young girl sitting alone on the street curb after her first lover showed her up. The mother with too many children, a failing marriage, and a workplace flirt is as interesting to me as the woman who goes off on a magical adventure escaping her droll Bronx life. I even think both tell the same story in a way, I simply prefer the version that I see every day.
I suppose in another life I could have been a formalist writer. The exploration and deconstruction of established forms of writing does peek my interest in a way not dissimilar to the way deconstructing societal stop-gates does for me. Perhaps if I had written more my work would have reached that point of change. Perhaps in another life.
Grace,
DeleteI am in agreeance with your take on the traditional story. There is enough in everyday reality to satiate what becomes of a story without adding fantastical elements. There is nothing wrong with a bit of magic, but drama seems to be stronger when grounded in reality. I too have preferred to write about societal effects on the hypocrisy of society, the lust of material objects, and the lengths people will go for their passions - same as your failing marriages and workplace flirtations.
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DeleteMs. Paley,
DeleteI do agree with you, for I too prefer what I encounter each day. Sure, what we encounter may not be pretty but it is raw. It may not be the best of society, and some may want to escape this reality in a way they see fit, but it tends to come back. It's always best to write about what inspires you, for anything else others will see through.
Grace Paley,
DeleteI appreciate your dedication to telling real stories. Those are the ones I find to be impactful. I personally love writing fabulist style stories because those are what feels real to me. As a Laguna Pueblo woman, I've learned the value of nature and the wonderfully magical things it can do.
When it comes to different types of writing styles my style would fall under the more traditional style of writing than an other. That's simply because the topics I focus on ten to be very grounded in reality because I want the audience to recognize these topics in real life. Let’s take “Brownies” for example. When I wrote “Brownies” it was a combination of my own experiences and the message I wanted to write in the story. I was in a Brownie troop when I was a little girl in Atlanta so I took those experiences. The message I wanted to show was how easily victims can become the victimizers. I took me a while to remember all of the moments I spent in the troop, and it took me even longer to get the certain tone of the story down. I wanted it to feel completely real so the readers could sympathize with the white girl troop but understand why Snot’s troop acted the way they did.
ReplyDeleteAnother reason I would say my stories are more traditional would be how liner they are. All of my stories should be read from beginning to end, and not in another form. If not the story would cease to have the same type of impact that I intended from the start. In “Every Tongue Shall Confess” , the meaning behind Clareese’s indecisiveness would be loss if you started in the middle of the story. I make sure to build the characters up from the first page so the liner style is what I rely on.
ZZ,
DeleteIt is said to write what one knows. In your experience, you were part of a brownie troop and this led to the creation of your work here. I can relate to this as I would write about French society, especially to point out the flaws of higher society. Work grounded in reality has the capacity to transform the reader as if they too were experiencing life in this way.
Ms. Packer,
DeleteI can relate to writing about your experiences, since I did the same thing. The only difference it seems to be our time. In your time it seems that society is more open to hearing about negativity, like you said "how [easy] victims can become the victimizers." It is true. I feel that most work is grounded in reality; if society wants to accept the reality or not.
Ms. Packer,
DeleteI agree that writing about things you've experienced and what you see around you can make for the strongest stories. I believe that the reasons my stories are seemingly well-liked is because they're authentic. They deal with difficult subjects in society, but all stem from my own experiences growing up as the child of Indian immigrants. I stick to writing in a linear fashion as well to show the progression of my characters.
ZZ,
DeleteI love how you love to create a real self emerged fiction product. You allow your readers to be in the moment with every-day encounters. I, however, do not believe many people are capable of this "classic" fictional storytelling, which is why I find it more creative, and explorative to have some strangeness.
Most of work would be what others refer to as Traditional. Many of my characters mirror reality, such in “Ball-of-Fat” and “The Necklace.” These stories focus on the realities of society, the hypocrisy and the demented lusting after objects and stripping themselves of their humanities. The narrative pattern of Tradition encompasses the series of events that transforms people and their relationships with the world around them. The woman in “The Necklace” is transformed when she loses a priceless necklace, much too extravagant for her to afford. She sinks into poverty, scrimping and saving in order to afford a new necklace to return to her friend, unknowing of the false diamonds in it.
ReplyDeleteHowever, not all of my work is Traditional. I have written in a Formalist style, where my form takes on a less traditional narration. My piece “Marroca” is written as a letter without the constrictive pleasantries one addresses a letter with. Later in my life, my writing did also change. As I was driven mad, possibly by the syphilis melting my brain, I sank into what is known as Fabulist. “The Hand” does not offer an explanation to the murder of the Englishman Sir John Rowell. This story is borderline supernatural, yet I determinedly dictate that it is not supernatural in the piece – merely the explanation is yet known. A severed hand may or may not be the culprit of the murder, as set up throughout the work, but it is said that it is not so. The answer remains a mystery.
Guy de Maupassant
I find that this experimentation and that branching out, trying to write different styles and different forms, can benefit an author. I think that your writing is quite diverse, trying out different styles, and each style would compliment a message nicely. -R. Dahl
DeleteAlthough I only occasionally partake in more Traditional writing, we seem to have very similar themes and subject matters. Maybe I could work outside of my comfort zone more often than I currently do...
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteNothing in my life was considered “traditional.” I grew up in a matriarchal household after my father was killed in a train accident in 1855. The bloodshed didn’t end there, since death is constantly watching over us. Depression hit the hardest once my late husband and mother died almost back-to-back. This caused me to be depressed, and the doctor encouraged me to write for solace.
ReplyDeleteAs one could imagine, my writing was not traditional but was among those in the Realist Movement. My literary works are filled with powerful and truthful representation of everyday life. My works also contained everyday morality and those who choose to question societal norms.
My novel, “The Awakening” is filled with sexual emotions and desires. During my time this was unheard of, and certainly went against the Catholic teachings I received at Sacred Heart. There I was taught to be submissive to men, however, I knew better and had my characters know better as well. It was rare that women were to act this way, and why would I portray something that was not true? The main character in the novel, Edna, did things that women in my time did; we just never spoke about them. Edna also faced imposed limitations by society and her family, which ran rapid in real life during my time as well.
My short story, Desiree’s Baby,” dealt with similar matters as well. Though, the similarities were not sexual, but dealt with one’s own line of purity. The main character, Desiree, knew little where she came from, and her husband seemed so sure that he was all Caucasian. So, when their infant turned in skin color, it was easy to pin all the blame on Desiree. Though, that was not the case. Back then, the white men had all the power, and if you did something they did not like they would find a way to ostracize you. It was always their word against yours, and this did happen often. Since it happened often, who says this was the women’s fault? All the women ever did was love their husbands and their babies, so, there had to be more to this narrative than these seemingly white men even knew. All I did was add a new perspective on this topic of exile.
What made this realism is the fact that these topics were taboo, and broke the illusion of how most people saw normal life. Readers got so connected to the stories and the characters that they forgot what they were reading was fiction. Sure, it was based on life, but it was not the illusion of life they were used to. Since these forbidden topics were only rumors, readers thought what they were reading was gossip that they may have overheard. The truth is that was the case, since inspiration for my work came from what I encountered and heard.
Kate Chopin,
Deletethere is something you, Roald Dahl, and I share in common. We each like writing about things that other people would shy away from. We each want to break "the illusion of how most people [see] normal life". For you, realism is the best medium, for Dahl it's traditionalist and for me it's fabulist. I like that we can approach they same objective in a different way.
Being that my beginning idols of literature were Tolstoy and Dostoevsky, it makes sense that my work would fall under the traditional style. Russian literature was my first love and inspired my own writing in many ways. If I had to place myself in a category, I would say I'm a realist. My writing tends to avoid abstraction, and I've always believed that simplicity is the best way to bring a sense of reality to a piece. Most of my short stories deal with real life, and what it is like for Indian immigrants living in America. I draw from my own experiences as well as those of my parents. This is probably most seen in my novel "The Namesake", which is based off of events in my own life even though the protagonist is a male. The imagery I use is concrete and non-superfluous, only showing the reader enough to make the world believable. I strive to make my writing not feel like a story, but like real life. My writing has been both criticized and praised for my simplistic writing style, yet I have adhered to it throughout the years. People are still reading my work, so it seems to work for some people.
ReplyDeleteRightly so! The audience you have cultivated is no doubt fascinated by the drama and intrigue that permeates others' lives without their notice. I find that pulling from one's own life, and those lives around you, often provide a wealth of knowledge and events that may be translated into a story.
DeleteTolstoy is a magnificent idol to have. Traditionalism is a wonderful way to introduce people to your experiences that they would be unfamiliar with. It connects us all.
DeleteJames Joyce
There exist multiple names for a vast number of ways that writing, fictitious in manner, is crafted. Though, in today’s age it is more common to see diversity in the field. As I have stated in many of my previous conversations, my writing was often modeled after my reality. As such I do believe that they would often fall below what is known as “traditional” style of story. In my time, though, it was not uncommon for this style to be widespread. While my works were often inspired by my own life or the lives of those around me, it is not so unreasonable to say that they often imitated the lives of many in my time. Stories like that of The Awakening and “Désire’s Baby” have often been compared to my own life, or circumstances that were not unheard of in my lifetime. Although, it may be said that some of my stories did, in fact, carry some elements of what I believe is known as fabulism. I do believe that this may be a result of the vivid scenes I write for the characters. This is scene in my short story “Ma’ame Pelagie” when the titular character so vividly imagines a scene in her dreams along the ruins of her former home that it seems otherworldly. Perhaps it could be that my works often imitated life simply because the realist tradition was one widely accepted and promoted.
ReplyDeleteI am a traditionalist writer. I was inspired by the work of Ibsen, especially. Realism gives me the ability to show the real struggles people have to face in this world. As someone who has lived through poverty, there are some experiences that stick with a person for the rest of their life. It is important to show the problems that people face so we can work towards fixing them. For example, my Dubliners shows real struggles people face everyday in Ireland, especially in Dublin. It is important to show the alcoholism, the abuse, the problems with the Catholic Church, and the abundance of nationalism. It’s important to show the impoverished. In Ulysses, I show the discrimination still prevalent in my homeland through my Jewish protagonist. Traditionalism gives me a way to portray real people and real problems for us to recognize and work towards changing.
ReplyDeleteYou know, but default, my writing would be characterized as fabulist literature. Laguna Pueblos'—and other American Indian tribes—believe the world is more complex than it seems. I hold nature to a higher value and understand that things aren't always simple because of natures role in our lives. Such is evident in my writing. The fabulist story has an element of magic; things happening that are unexplainable or unheard of. In my stories, I write a lot of traditional Laguna Pueblo folktales; I'm inspired by them. When it comes to those folktales, often times, they involve a trickster. Tricksters are mythical. They are shapeshifters, individuals who don't follow social norms, powerful people who are neither good nor bad. I write about what I know and people who possess mythical abilities is what I know.
ReplyDeleteI don't particularly like labels. I don't like them as a reader, and I don't like labels as a writer, either. I don't think of labels at all when I write, i'm just trying to make something. Writers should be able to write whatever they want without any sort of prejudice. I don't like any sort of "imagination" police looking over my shoulder, being snobs and whatnot.
ReplyDeleteHowever, I do think that if I had to categorize my work, it would be a little all over the place. I start with my characters and relationships first, then comes the setting. So usually I can get some sort of idea going that may find a home with a traditional story or a fabulist one. I've certainly had my go at formal stories, but it all depends on the setting.
I would say that all fiction comes from a type of dream, a subconscious. With this belief I think planning out fiction is really ludicrous. You can't force your dreams and you can't force fiction. This is why I write first thing in the morning, fresh, creativity still flowing and forming. I would consider the majority of my writings to be under the fabulist- if I had to choose, however fiction is fiction and I don't like to pick favorites. I like the idea of someone born with something, who has to wrestle with it as a formative quality as opposed to an adult who comes upon a skill or strangeness in adulthood. In my history of writing, I tend to channel the emotional development of adolescents, giving them special and strange quirks in their development which I think is a huge addition to the appeal of my stories. While writing "The Particular Sadness of Lemon Cake" in creating some of the magic in the novel, I was trying to clear away sentences I didn’t believe, and stick with the ones I did, even if they surprised me. In a way including these magical realisms help me learn about myself, and I hope that they help the readers too in more self discovery.
ReplyDeleteHello again dears,
ReplyDeleteI'd say out of those three types, I would place my writing in the Traditional Story category. I certainly don't write anything fantastical, nor do I dabble with metafiction and form. I'd say my writing is really rather influenced by my lifetime spent journaling, from when I was a little girl growing up in Montgomery. I usually find myself following a rather linear timeline, much as one would find if they read my journals and letters to Scott, but place most emphasis on the dark and whimsically descriptive moments. A favorite piece of writing of mine, and sadly likely the most known, comes from Scott's novel This Side of Paradise. There are many parts of this novel that are pulled directly from my journals, and Amory's soliloquy is one of them:
"The afternoon waned from the purging good of three o’clock to the golden beauty of four. Afterward he walked through the dull ache of a setting sun when even the clouds seemed bleeding and at twilight he came to a graveyard. There was a dusky, dreamy smell of flowers and the ghost of a new moon in the sky and shadows everywhere. On an impulse he considered trying to open the door of a rusty iron vault built into the side of a hill; a vault washed clean and covered with late-blooming, weepy watery-blue flowers that might have grown from dead eyes, sticky to the touch with a sickening odor."
I write from what I know and from what I see of the world, and I try to encapsulate the wonderfully beautiful and deathless qualities I see all around me. I don't write to alter reality or to structure my works with hidden meaning. I write because our world is already so tragically beautiful, and no words will ever do justice to love or death or a rain falling softly in the night, so we must use them to direct our attention to these moments as they happen.